On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Weijia Jiang:
- Kevin Hassett, Nationwide Financial Council director
- Rep. Tom Suozzi, Democrat of New York
- Director Ken Burns
Click on here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
WEIJIA JIANG: I am Weijia Jiang in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump will get a giant Independence Day win, as his One Massive Stunning Invoice is signed into legislation.
And devastating flash floods kill dozens in Texas. Tragedy this vacation weekend, as flash floods sweep by means of elements of Texas, killing at the least 50, together with 15 kids, a few of whom had been at summer season camp. We can have the most recent.
Then: After an extended week lobbying for votes and slicing offers together with his fellow Republicans, the president spent the Fourth of July celebrating the nation’s 249th birthday by enacting his signature tax minimize and spending plan.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of america): It is actually guarantees made, guarantees saved, and we now have saved them.
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WEIJIA JIANG: However Democrats and even some Republicans usually are not pleased with the invoice’s projected debt and deficit will increase, cuts to Medicaid and different provisions.
We are going to speak with the pinnacle of the White Home Financial Council, Kevin Hassett, and New York centrist Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi about his occasion’s plan to construct on voter apprehension concerning the new legislation.
Lastly, CBS Night Information co-anchor John Dickerson talks to filmmaker and historian Ken Burns about his new mission, as America strikes in the direction of marking our 250th 12 months.
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KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): The American Revolution is a very powerful occasion because the start of Christ in all of world historical past.
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WEIJIA JIANG: He’ll clarify why the teachings discovered by our forefathers nonetheless apply right this moment.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is out right this moment. I am Weijia Jiang.
Now we have bought quite a bit to get to, however we do wish to start with the unfolding catastrophe in Texas, the place officers say at the least 50 individuals are useless and dozens are lacking after devastating flash floods.
CBS Information correspondent Jason Allen experiences from Kerrville, Texas.
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JASON ALLEN (voice-over): Greater than 1,300 state and native emergency responders are nonetheless desperately looking the banks of the Guadalupe River this morning, marking vehicles and houses, selecting by means of piles of particles, looking for survivors of a historic and lethal flash flood.
The deluge that started early Friday morning precipitated the often tranquil river to rise 26 ft in solely 45 minutes.
MAN: We’re at Camp Mystic on the lookout for – for our youngsters.
JASON ALLEN: A lot of the main target is on this summer season camp, the place greater than two dozen third and fourth grade ladies are nonetheless lacking. Their dad and mom are desperately looking.
MAN: After which we’re on the lookout for locations that they are going to doubtlessly be alive. There’s over 20 of them nonetheless on the market.
JASON ALLEN: Kerr County doesn’t have an outside warning system. That is usually the sirens which are used to alert individuals to tornadoes or different sturdy storms.
Homeland Safety Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been part of discussions about altering the federal authorities’s function in responding to main disasters, stated that the climate alert system must be up to date to provide individuals extra time and extra warning forward of utmost climate.
KRISTI NOEM (U.S. Homeland Safety Secretary): The Nationwide Climate Service has indicated that, with that and NOAA, that we wanted to resume this historical system that has been left in place with the federal authorities for a lot of, a few years. And that’s the reforms which are ongoing.
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JASON ALLEN: Texas Governor Greg Abbott has now signed an expanded catastrophe declaration order. You may see there’s a little little bit of rain right here within the space this morning, but it surely’s not anticipated to be something like we noticed the previous couple of days, Weijia.
And though officers say that that is nonetheless an lively rescue mission, they acknowledge that, because the hours go by, it turns into much less and fewer possible that they are going to discover anybody alive.
WEIJIA JIANG: Our hearts are with all these households.
Jason Allen in Kerrville, Texas, thanks.
We flip now to Kevin Hassett. He’s the director of the Nationwide Financial Council and certainly one of President Trump’s prime advisers. He is additionally very talked-about on that driveway, the place I am often alongside a couple of dozen reporters.
So, Kevin, thanks a lot in your time this morning.
I wish to begin with commerce, as a result of there is a massive deadline developing on Wednesday, as you already know. That 90-day pause on reciprocal tariffs that the president introduced again in April is ready to finish. To date, the U.S. has introduced just a few offers, the U.Ok., Vietnam, and also you’re inching nearer to a ultimate settlement with China.
Do you anticipate to get any extra offers achieved with America’s largest buying and selling companions by Wednesday?
KEVIN HASSETT (Director, Nationwide Financial Council): Sure.
First, I do must take a pause and share your ideas and prayers with the individuals of Texas. It is an unimaginable, heartbreaking story. And Kristi Noem and the president have instructed the federal authorities to throw every little thing they’ve at serving to the survivors and serving to clear up that place.
And so, anyway, I am actually heartbroken right this moment to see these tales. And I would like you to know that, within the White Home, all people is placing each effort they’ll into serving to the individuals of Texas right this moment.
On commerce, there’s going to be fairly a bit of stories this week. And I feel the headline of the information is that there are going to be offers which are finalized. There are an entire quantity that Jamieson Greer has negotiated with overseas governments. After which there are going to be letters which are despatched to international locations saying, here is how we expect it should go as a result of the offers aren’t superior sufficient.
And the headline goes to be that international locations are agreeing all over the world to open their markets as much as our merchandise and to permit us to place some sort of tariff on their merchandise after they come into the U.S. And precisely what the numbers might be might be issues that you can find out within the information this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: And, Kevin, you stated there are going to be offers.
For these actually necessary buying and selling companions, if there’s not a deal by Wednesday, is the president going to increase this pause?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: You understand, america is all the time prepared to speak to all people about every little thing that is happening on the planet. And there are deadlines and there are issues which are shut. And so possibly issues will push again the useless – previous the deadline, or possibly they will not.
In the long run, the president goes to make that judgment.
WEIJIA JIANG: And also you additionally talked about these letters that can begin going out tomorrow, in response to President Trump. He stated about 10 to 12 international locations will obtain them.
Do you – are you able to inform us who’s going to get one and what they are saying?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I am sorry, I am unable to, as a result of – as a result of, once more, the a part of the letter that might be occurring, proper, is that we’re near a deal, we’re not likely happy with the progress that we’re making within the deal, and so we’re saying, OK, tremendous we’ll ship a letter, however possibly you get a deal on the final minute too.
Till we see every little thing that performs out, I feel that we have to simply maintain our fireplace and look ahead to the information this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: Is it honest to say that these notices are going to go to our smaller buying and selling companions, as you negotiate with our greater ones?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I feel that it might be that it will be each.
But in addition remember that, when we now have nice commerce offers, our smaller buying and selling companions might change into a lot greater buying and selling companions. And that is, I feel, one of many the reason why international locations are racing to set offers up with us forward of the deadline.
WEIJIA JIANG: I’ve to ask you concerning the deadlines, Kevin, to make these offers, since you simply talked about you are all the time open. The president stated there’s not likely any flexibility left between now and Wednesday.
Lower than two weeks in the past, the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, stated that offers can be wrapped up by Labor Day. So I ponder if – how can corporations plan if the goalposts maintain transferring? How can international locations negotiate if they do not even understand how a lot time they’ve left?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Proper.
Properly, the tough outlines of the offers have gotten clear to all people, as a result of we now have some offers, just like the U.Ok. and the Vietnam deal, which are beginning to be, I suppose, pointers for what would possibly occur.
However one of many issues that we’re seeing that is actually attention-grabbing to me is that individuals are simply onshoring manufacturing to the U.S. at a file fee. And so we now have had file job creation, file capital spending. And that is even forward of the Massive Stunning Invoice. And so I feel what’s occurring is that individuals are responding to President Trump’s potential threats to have excessive tariffs on international locations by transferring their exercise right here into the U.S., which is creating jobs, greater than two million jobs since he took workplace, and elevating wages.
You understand, wage progress is heading up in the direction of the actually, actually excessive pinnacles that we noticed in 2017. And so I feel there is a race proper now to get exercise into the U.S. And, partially, that race has been kicked off by President Trump.
WEIJIA JIANG: I keep in mind, after these reciprocal tariffs had been introduced, you advised me that there are about 15 offers that international locations had been bringing to the president.
How shut – if you happen to might give us any quantity in any respect, what quantity are we going to see this week?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Sure, you should have – you’ll have to get that from Jamieson and the president. I feel that we now have seen a number of offers which were finalized by negotiators, after which the president finds issues that may make them higher.
And so it is – I am not going to get forward of the president on the variety of offers.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK, thanks, Kevin. We are going to look out for that.
I wish to transfer now to the One Massive Stunning Invoice that…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Sure.
WEIJIA JIANG: … after all, the president signed into legislation on Independence Day.
You’ve gotten it, and now you must pay for it. And there is a consensus that this invoice provides tremendously to the deficit. I do know that you’re so acquainted with these numbers. The Yale Finances Lab estimates it’s going to add $3 trillion to the debt. The Tax Basis says this tax portion of the invoice might additionally add $3 trillion to the deficit.
The Committee for a Accountable Federal Finances, which elements an curiosity on the debt, says it might add as much as $5 trillion over the subsequent decade. And on this very program, even Speaker Johnson answered within the affirmative when requested if this invoice would add over $4 trillion to the deficit.
I do know that the administration says the invoice will really shrink the deficit by $1.5 trillion. Assist me perceive…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Positive.
WEIJIA JIANG: … why there may be such a drastic distinction between your numbers and all these others.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Properly – effectively, initially, let’s do not forget that science isn’t democracy. Reality isn’t democracy.
Our estimates are primarily based on modeling that we used final time after I was chairman of the Council of Financial Advisers to say what would occur if we had a invoice, how a lot progress we might get. And we stated – and we had been criticized soundly – that we might get 3 p.c progress.
And we even had the actually technical macroeconomic fashions that stated that we might get 3 p.c progress. We run the identical fashions by means of this tax invoice, it is even higher. And what we’re seeing is that, if you happen to get 3 p.c progress once more, then that is $4 trillion extra in income than the CBO and these different our bodies are giving us credit score for.
They’ve been fallacious previously, they usually’re being fallacious once more, in our perception. However the factor that disappoints me is that, if I put out a mannequin and I say, hey, here is what is going on to occur, we’ll get 3 p.c progress, after which it seems it is 1.5 p.c progress, then, as a tutorial economist, as a scientist, then it is my obligation to say, what did I get fallacious? What did my mannequin miss?
These individuals aren’t doing that. And that is the factor that I discover disappointing, as a result of we put peer-reviewed educational stuff on the desk and stated, we’ll get that 3 p.c progress, after which we bought it proper final time. And we consider we’ll get it proper this time.
However if you happen to assume that 1.8 p.c progress is what is going on to occur over the subsequent 10 years, then it’s best to agree with the CBO quantity. However there’s one other a part of the CBO quantity that you could fear about. And that’s that, if we do not cross the invoice, then it is the largest tax hike in historical past.
And with that massive tax hike, then, after all, we might have a recession. The CEA says that we might have a couple of 4 p.c drop in GDP and lose 9 million jobs. If we had a 4 p.c drop in GDP and we misplaced 9 billion jobs, what would occur to the deficit?
And so I do not assume that the CBO has a really sturdy file. I do not assume these locations have a really sturdy file. And what they should do is get again to the fundamentals of macroeconomic fashions. There is a actually well-known macroeconomist in Harvard named Jim Inventory. They need to return and skim every little thing Jim Inventory has written for the final 15 years and fold these into their fashions, after which possibly we might speak.
WEIJIA JIANG: I wish to speak to you, Kevin, about one other quantity that I do know you and the president disagree with, however that Democrats and plenty of Republicans are anxious about.
And that is the CBO’s projection that as many as 12 million Individuals might lose Medicaid protection due to this legislation. What’s the NEC’s estimate for the way many individuals might lose protection?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Properly, sure, let’s unbundle that a little bit bit, as a result of, first, on the CBO protection, so what are we doing?
So what we’re doing is, we’re asking for a piece requirement, however the work requirement is that you could be on the lookout for work and even doing volunteer work, and also you need not do it till your children are 14 or older. And so the concept that is going to trigger an enormous hemorrhaging in availability of insurance coverage does not make a whole lot of sense to us.
After which, if you happen to have a look at the CBO numbers, if you happen to have a look at the large numbers they are saying that individuals are going to lose insurance coverage, about 5 million of these are individuals who produce other insurance coverage. There are individuals who have two kinds of insurance coverage. And so, subsequently, in the event that they lose one, they’re nonetheless insured.
And so the CBO numbers on that aspect do not make any sense to us in any respect, however, on the opposite aspect, return to 2017, once we had work necessities for Obamacare, they usually stated that we might lose about 4 million insured between 2017 and 2019, and about double that over the subsequent 10 years. And, in actual fact, the variety of insured went up, went up fairly a bit, by greater than 10 million, over these two years, as a result of the underside line is, the easiest way to get insurance coverage is to get a job.
And we now have bought a Massive Stunning Invoice that is going to create a whole lot of job creation and a whole lot of insurance coverage. And the CBO is simply not accounting for that.
And, once more, they want to return and have a look at all of the issues that they bought fallacious. You understand that they are underestimating Medicaid spending by 20 p.c. They need to look again in any respect the issues they bought fallacious and clarify what they are going to do to get it proper sooner or later and to do a greater job. And in the event that they do this, we’ll take them extra severely.
However, proper now, I do not assume any severe thinker might take them severely, as a result of they’ve achieved so fallacious – been so fallacious for therefore lengthy. Even again – if you happen to return to when President Obama handed Obamacare, they bought each single quantity there fallacious about how many individuals would get non-public insurance coverage and the way few individuals would get Medicaid and so forth.
And so their file on this modeling house is about as dangerous because it’s attainable to be. In reality, you could possibly sort of roll the roulette wheel and give you a greater set of numbers, a greater historical past, monitor file historical past, than CBO.
WEIJIA JIANG: Properly, Kevin, what concerning the enhanced subsidies? Is that quantity fallacious too, that the ACA permits about $705 for individuals to assist pay for his or her medical health insurance?
That does not sound just like the waste, fraud and abuse that I do know you and the president have talked about eliminating. That simply appears like individuals who can’t afford protection, and now it will be much more so with these subsidies gone.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Proper. Properly – effectively, what – what – if you happen to’re – if you happen to’re trying on the – the change within the tax on the suppliers, which is one thing that has been a key speaking level for the Democrats, they are saying that that is going to shut down rural hospitals, what has occurred is that, relatively than let the states – the states have this sport the place they offer a greenback to a hospital, after which the federal authorities matches the greenback, after which the state taxes a few of the greenback away.
In different phrases, that we now have an settlement with the states that they are going to match, however then they’ve this trick the place they tax the hospitals after they offer them cash, so actually it is the federal authorities giving them cash. And that is why we now have been overspending Medicaid by 20 p.c since this trick began occurring.
And so what we now have achieved is that we now have put a haircut on that, however we now have additionally put $50 billion right into a belief fund to make it possible for the agricultural hospitals are there to deal with the sick.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And so I feel this can be a prudent reform. It is sound budgetary politics, and I feel that no one’s going to lose their insurance coverage.
WEIJIA JIANG: Kevin Hassett, we’ll watch for the way that ages.
Thanks very a lot. Actually respect your time.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And if I get it fallacious, we’ll test and we’ll discuss why I bought it fallacious, I promise.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
Thanks. We can have you again. Thanks very a lot, Kevin.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Thanks, Weijia Jiang.
We now flip to Congressman – Face the Nation might be again in a single minute. Stick with us.
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WEIJIA JIANG: We flip now to New York Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi.
Congressman, thanks a lot in your time this morning.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI (D-New York): Sure, thanks a lot for having me.
WEIJIA JIANG: Properly, you simply heard from Kevin Hassett.
You understand, like President Trump, he stated, with out this invoice, it might be one of many biggest tax hikes for the American public. They are saying it’s the biggest tax minimize in American historical past.
You sit on the Methods and Means Committee, so I’ve to surprise the way you describe it.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: I describe it as the large, ugly invoice, not the Massive Stunning Invoice.
It is going to do a whole lot of issues which are going to harm lots of people in our nation. The most important one, which you talked about with Mr. Hassett, is enhance the deficit enormously within the nation. And what that does is, that creates inflation, that retains rates of interest excessive, that makes it arduous for individuals to purchase houses, makes it arduous for them to borrow cash to do the issues that they wish to do.
As well as, it will knock a bunch of individuals off of well being care. We all know that the Republicans have tried for a decade to undo the Reasonably priced Care Act, Obamacare, and that is sort of a backdoor approach to take medical health insurance away from individuals that actually want it probably the most right here in our nation.
And it will trigger medical health insurance prices to go up for lots of people. One of many president’s largest points he campaigned on was decreasing costs quickly. On day one, we’ll minimize the prices.
Properly, prices usually are not taking place. Inflation – inflation goes to be affected by this deficit. Rates of interest are going to remain excessive, and that is going to have a destructive affect on medical health insurance prices for many individuals in our nation.
WEIJIA JIANG: I do know that you just simply introduced up Medicaid and potential lack of protection. What do you say to some Individuals who would possibly surprise, effectively, why ought to the able-bodied not must work to be able to entry Medicaid?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Properly, you must perceive that 92 p.c of the individuals which are capable of work are at the moment working, and the 8 p.c that aren’t are sometimes individuals which are taking good care of disabled kids.
Do not forget that two-thirds of the individuals in nursing houses are on Medicaid. One-tenth of all of the veterans in america of America are on Medicaid. Medicaid is a lifeline for therefore many individuals which are going through such troublesome circumstances that we will not even probably think about.
And why would we be taking medical health insurance and meals advantages away from a few of the most needy Individuals, whereas we’re offering what I consider is an pointless tax break for a few of the wealthiest Individuals? It simply does not make sense that you just’re decreasing taxes for a few of the wealthiest individuals, hurting a few of the lowest-income individuals, whereas blowing the largest deficit within the price range that we have had within the historical past of the nation.
These issues simply do not add up.
WEIJIA JIANG: Properly, simply final week, you stated you agree with 75 p.c of what is on this bundle. That is a fairly important quantity. So why is not it definitely worth the 25 p.c that you do not like?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: As a result of these issues that I simply talked about are so devastating.
I like the concept we’re investing more cash to safe the border. I like the concept we’re paying – offering tax breaks to lower-income people and hardworking center class people and other people aspiring to the center class.
I like the concept of offering tax breaks for these people. However why are we offering – and when the economic system is doing in addition to it has been over the previous a number of years, why would we be offering a tax lower, tax breaks for a few of the wealthiest Individuals in our nation, whereas blowing an enormous gap within the deficit?
WEIJIA JIANG: Congressman, I wish to flip to an op-ed that you just wrote in “The Wall Road Journal” final week saying Zohran Mamdani’s win within the New York Metropolis’s Democratic mayoral major must be a – quote – “loud wakeup name for Democrats.”
What classes do you assume your occasion can be taught from – from his marketing campaign?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Properly, you already know, I disagree with Mr. Mamdani. I’ve to make that very clear that, you already know, I am a Democratic capitalist. I am not a Democratic socialist.
And – however you must acknowledge that he tapped into one thing. He tapped into the identical factor that Donald Trump tapped into, which is that individuals are involved that the economic system isn’t working for them. Affordability and the economic system is the primary subject within the nation.
And, too typically, Democrats usually are not perceived as being targeted on affordability and the economic system and the center class, and other people aspiring to the center class and their financial considerations. They see Democrats as being primarily targeted on reproductive rights and on LGBT protections, that are necessary points, however they don’t seem to be the problems that individuals take into consideration each evening after they’re mendacity in mattress excited about paying their payments or after they’re speaking about how they are going to ship their children to high school.
So Democrats have gotten to do a greater job studying from each Trump and Mamdani, not with their options, which I feel are fallacious, however with the prognosis of the issue, that we’re annoyed, we’re involved. Everyone in America, whether or not you are a right-wing conservative or a left-wing progressive, ought to consider that, in return for working arduous, you make sufficient cash so you’ll be able to dwell a great life.
You should purchase a house, you’ll be able to educate your kids, you’ll be able to pay in your medical health insurance, you’ll be able to retire someday with out being scared. Individuals do not feel that at the moment, and we now have to do a greater job of speaking that.
WEIJIA JIANG: Properly, I am glad you introduced up the notion, since you additionally wrote that Democrats should acknowledge the longer term begins with a message of financial safety for American households.
I coated the Biden marketing campaign. I coated the Harris marketing campaign. That was the middle of their messages. So what’s the issue right here? Is it the messenger? Is it the messaging? As a result of they’ve that message already.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: It is a mixture.
Primary, the Democratic Occasion as an entire has to have this platform that focuses on what the individuals care about. They care concerning the economic system. They care about immigration. They care about taxes. They care about crime. They care about well being care.
However then we now have to acknowledge that the media infrastructure is fractured. And Trump figured it out earlier than the Democrats have, which is that it isn’t simply conventional media, like your reveals and newspapers, but it surely’s social media. It is podcasts.
Podcasts, the highest 500 podcasts in America, 400 of the highest 500 are right- leaning, 100 are left-leaning, and of the 100 left-leaning ones, half of them beat the you-know what out of the Democrats. Then you’ve gotten different nationwide media, after which you’ve gotten a few of this ethnic and underground media associated to WeChat and WhatsApp and various kinds of apps that individuals use.
So we now have to speak throughout all these platforms, as a result of individuals are getting their messages in these fractured environments and residing in these echo chambers. And we now have to do a greater job speaking throughout all these platforms and getting Democrats as an entire to give attention to the economic system, immigration, et cetera.
WEIJIA JIANG: All proper, Congressman, we’re all making an attempt to be taught all these new languages. Thanks a lot in your time this morning.
And we’ll be proper again with much more Face the Nation. Stick with us.
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WEIJIA JIANG: Should you’re on the lookout for extra Face the Nation, together with prolonged interviews and particular content material, you’ll be able to go to our YouTube web page or subscribe to our podcast. It is out there on all platforms, together with Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon.
We might be proper again.
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WEIJIA JIANG: We might be proper again with an interview with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns on the American Revolution.
Stick with us.
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WEIJIA JIANG: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
A day forward of America’s 249th birthday, “CBS EVENING NEWS” co-anchor John Dickerson met up with filmmaker and historian Ken Burns at Monticello, Virginia, the house of our third president, Thomas Jefferson. Burns has a brand new movie out this November on PBS entitled “The American Revolution,” and he gave us a preview.
(BEGIN VC)
JOHN DICKERSON: You name the – the revolutionary interval a civil battle.
KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): It’s.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was that all the time your conception of the –
KEN BURNS: No.
JOHN DICKERSON: How did you come to think about it that method?
KEN BURNS: I feel as a result of there is not any images and there is not any information reels they usually’re in, you already know, stockings and breaches and powdered wigs there is a sense of distance from them. I feel we are also so proud, rightfully, of the ability of the large concepts that we – we simply do not wish to get into the truth that it was this bloody civil battle, patriots in opposition to loyalists, disaffected individuals, native individuals, enslaved and free individuals inside it, overseas powers which are in – in the end engaged on this. It is a massive world battle by the top.
I feel we – we – we maybe are fearful that these massive concepts are diminished they usually’re not in any method. They’re, in actual fact, change into much more inspiring, that they emerge from the turmoil.
JOHN DICKERSON: How ought to we take into consideration the Declaration of Independence this era in America in our current day?
KEN BURNS: To start with, I feel the American Revolution is a very powerful occasion because the start of Christ in all of world historical past.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why?
KEN BURNS: I imply it turned the world the other way up, which is the cliche. Earlier than this second, everybody was a topic. Primarily underneath the rule of any individual else. We had created on this second a really brand-new factor known as a citizen. And this has had highly effective results. It is going to set in movement revolutions for the subsequent two plus centuries all all over the world, all trying to type of give a brand new expression to this concept that every one males are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with sure unalienable rights. And that is a giant, massive deal in world historical past.
So, what occurs right here is I suppose you could possibly, you already know, miss the purpose and say it is a quarterfinal between Englishmen, however it’s the starting of one thing completely new on the planet. And – and that’s one thing to have a good time. And to grasp, too, that it comes out of a lot division that is happening between the states. Individuals in New Hampshire and Georgia are – they’re – they’re from totally different international locations. They consider various things, that you could possibly have the divisions of – of loyalists and patriots, you could possibly have this – all of the – the issues which are rolling in these colonies and perceive that out of that we might nonetheless determine a approach to come collectively.
JOHN DICKERSON: Individuals assume they’re fairly divided proper now. They weren’t almost as divided as they had been through the revolutionary interval.
KEN BURNS: Right here is the easy factor. We’re all the time divided. So, it – it ebbs and flows a little bit bit, however we’re all the time have massive variations.
You understand, Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal isn’t met with common approval. The Civil Conflict kills 750,000 Individuals we expect over the problem of slavery. Now we have our personal revolution. There are lot of durations. The Vietnam interval, once we’re so significantly divided.
So, I feel there’s a little bit little bit of rooster little, you already know, oh, the sky is falling as a result of now issues are all the time worse now than they ever had been. The one – the rationale why historians, and God is aware of I am an newbie historian, really feel a sort of optimism is as a result of there’s one thing acquainted. There’s, you already know, the Bible says there’s nothing new underneath the solar, human nature basically does not change, and that is true.
What’s nice concerning the revolution is, for a second issues really – there was one thing new on the planet. And that is the factor that we have to use. That is the leverage we now have to deliver us again to the flexibility to talk to at least one one other, to grasp the way you clear up your variations, versus the type of soup of anger and – and mistrust that gave the impression to be, you already know, all over the place now.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s a citizen’s obligation now?
KEN BURNS: A citizen’s obligation now is identical because it’s ever been. And that is a very powerful factor. There is a fantastic phrase, a little bit bit later from the well-known phrases, the place Jefferson says, “all expertise has proven that mankind are extra disposed to undergo whereas evils are sufferable.” Which means, all of us sort of have gravitated to be underneath authoritarian rule. You understand, the trains working on time, or we get at the least this. However we’ll require of you to be a citizen one thing extra. It is bought to be lively.
The pursuit of happiness isn’t the acquisition of issues in a market of objects, however lifelong studying in a market of concepts. That is what the founders stated. To be virtuous, to dwell a virtuous life, to repeatedly educate your self is what was required to maintain this republic. And I feel that is what we have gotten away from. Every little thing is type of all individualized. We’re all free brokers. We do not understand that freedom, the factor that we tout, is not only what I would like, but in addition that is intention with what we want.
And I feel what occurs is that once we examine these phrases, we will return to the sense of newness and freshness that they represented and rededicate ourselves. And meaning me, for me, and also you for you, to this concept that the pursuit of happiness is about lifelong studying. It is about turning into ever extra educated to the duty of citizenship. And that is an enormous, big duty. Not simply to take your feed, not simply to waft, not simply to get your info that – that type of ratifies what you already thought, however to truly discover what my neighbor thinks.
JOHN DICKERSON: Being an American, as Jefferson noticed it, because the founders noticed it, was a unbroken obligation to have interaction with its historical past.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper. And – and that is actually necessary, to be able to type the federal government, they needed to attain again by means of the center ages, by means of the darkish ages, again to antiquity, to deliver up these concepts like advantage and temperance and moderation and all the issues that every one of them had been on the lookout for.
I imply, the wonderful issues is, we’re right here at Thomas Jefferson’s home, however we do not have a rustic with out his phrases, but in addition we do not have a rustic with out George Washington. And but we find out about all of those males. They’re deeply flawed, in lots of necessary methods. And I feel right this moment, in our binary tradition, you already know, the place every little thing’s a one or a zero, or it is a purple state or a blue state, it is my method or the freeway, we have forgotten that it is attainable to tolerate, as we do amongst – with the individuals we love, their strengths and their weaknesses.
So, heroism isn’t perfection if we will take an historic view that allows us to see a Jefferson and a Washington in – in these very difficult understanding of them, then it is attainable to then breathe, to have some room to grasp who we at the moment are, who we had been then, and the place we could be, which is, after all, a very powerful factor. All of the anxiousness about this current second is de facto not a lot concerning the current second, however about, will we survive.
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you able to speak concerning the genius and brilliance of his phrases with out sitting proper within the center Jefferson’s proudly owning of slaves, enslaved individuals?
KEN BURNS: No. I feel that is the necessary factor. And someway we have – we have gotten to the concept you simply do not wish to mess with the great things and let’s simply fake – pay no consideration to that man behind the – you’ll be able to’t do this. story is an efficient story is an efficient story. And this can be a actually good a part of the story. It is difficult. It is darkish. There are human beings on this home who’re owned by an individual who has articulated common rights for everybody. And what’s so nice is that the vagueness of the phrases has allowed all people to plow by means of and make it their very own. Not simply right here, however throughout the stuff.
So – so, when he says “pursuit of happiness,” that could be the important thing phrase. After we say a “extra excellent union” within the Structure in a while, that could be the important thing phrase, that this can be a course of that we’re engaged in. And so possibly the – the poetry, but in addition the vagueness of the phrases have opened a door which have – have – have allowed ladies to return by means of, which have allowed enslaved individuals to have citizenship, which have expanded in so many alternative methods. And all all over the world, that that is – that is progress.
And so, I feel going again and understanding them for the deep undertow that is current, and typically actually discomforting undertow about it, is OK. It is – nothing is diminished. Do not make a Madison Avenue model of – – of – of our previous, however have a good time the grittiness. And I feel on this case, the violence of the American Revolution, we do a service to these concepts that we expect have to be protected. I imply, with – this isn’t concepts which are fastened in amber, you already know, that is – that is – that is gritty, gritty stuff. Individuals died. A lot of individuals died combating for this in – in simply horrific struggles when the primary type of killing was a bayonet. That is not enjoyable.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Trump has issued an govt during which he says mainly historical past has gotten out of steadiness as of the American authorities, both funds it by means of museums or nationwide parks, and he stated as an alternative that – that this federal function in historical past ought to as an alternative “give attention to the greatness of the achievements and the progress of the American individuals.”
So, President Trump thinks there’s an imbalance in the way in which we discuss historical past. How do you see that?
KEN BURNS: I do not see the imbalance. I feel we have to have a good time the greatness of the American individuals. The greatness of the American individuals comes from telling these compensated tales. And – and – and that is a great story is an efficient story is an efficient story. That is what you are on the lookout for. You do not wish to simply say is, in any other case it is simply type of slogans which are – which are put up on the wall.
We wish to really feel that we all know who Thomas Jefferson is. We have to perceive the interior struggles that Abraham Lincoln had. Now we have to grasp what was going by means of Rosa Parks’ thoughts when she, you already know, refused to surrender her seat on the bus. This by no means take away from the glory (ph), it makes the story fuller and richer and – and permits buy for everybody. You – – you desire a – a historical past to be difficult as a result of it provides all people an opportunity to personal or have entry to it.
JOHN DICKERSON: Variety of voice in storytelling was necessary to you. That is also underneath assault in the intervening time. The president mainly is making an attempt to take away all efforts to maintain variety in thoughts. Is there one thing that’s misplaced in that?
KEN BURNS: Properly, you already know, there is a power within the wagon wheel of all of the totally different spokes into the hub. We’re all on the lookout for the hub, regardless of the hub is. Which means, you already know, one thing that pulls us collectively, that refrain. That is what we’re all about.
And in order that – the power of that wheel has to do with having the spokes and having a mess of perspective. The impulse for some is to say there’s just one perspective. And that is true of many alternative issues. Typically say it is bought to be solely from this attitude. It is bought to be Freudian or it is bought to be Marxist financial or it is bought to be symbolic or it is bought to be, you already know, post-modern, or regardless of the factor is. You do not want that.
(END VT)
JIANG: We’ll be proper again with extra of John’s dialog with Ken Burns.
Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
(BEGIN VC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shot rings out. Nobody is aware of the place the shot got here from. That results in promiscuous taking pictures. Principally by the British. It is not a battle. It is not a skirmish. It is a bloodbath.
Now blood has been shed. Now the person in your left has been shot by means of the pinnacle. Your neighbor on the best has been badly wounded. You may’t put that genie again within the bottle.
(END VC)
JIANG: That is a preview of Ken Burns’ upcoming new movie “The American Revolution.”
This is extra of John Dickerson’s dialog with the documentary filmmaker.
(BEGIN VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Going again to this concept of ongoing nourishment of historical past, a part of, return to the Revolution, to be taught who we at the moment are. Do you ever consider this work as an intervention?
Individuals do not re-read The Declaration each Fourth of July, as Thomas Jefferson wished. Individuals, in your telling, appear to have overpassed a few of the elements of our founding. Perhaps we do not even know them as a result of we have been advised totally different sorts of tales. Is that this an intervention?
KEN BURNS: No. Intervention imposes between the storyteller, that will be us, and the story we’re making an attempt to inform and our viewers, some type of bigger, high-fluting goal. story is an efficient story is an efficient story. And that is all we’re concerned about doing.
The Fourth of July is my favourite vacation since you sit there on a blanket, on a area, these fireworks with all of those different individuals at the hours of darkness and also you share with them in widespread that we comply with mainly a sentence in a – in a – in a doc, written, you already know, by a Virginian who lived right here, you already know, 249 years in the past. That is actually highly effective stuff.
So, the truth that it may be misinterpreted by some, that is all the time going to be the case. Manipulated by others, this can all the time be the case. Kind of, you already know, genuinely embraced however for the fallacious causes, this can all the time be the case. However we nonetheless, we all know. We perceive that we maintain these truths to be self-evident, though they weren’t, that every one males are created equal, that they’re endowed by their creator with sure unalienable rights that amongst these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It does not get any higher of that.
JOHN DICKERSON: You’ve got advised a whole lot of your tales on PBS. PBS is underneath menace.
KEN BURNS: All off them. All of them. All of them (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you anxious about the way forward for PBS?
KEN BURNS: After all I’m. And I’ve all the time been anxious about it. Within the Nineties, I feel I testified within the Home or the Senate, in appropriations or authorization concerning the endowments are concerning the Company for Public Broadcasting a half dozen occasions.
JOHN DICKERSON: Make the case for PBS.
KEN BURNS: It’s the Declaration of Independence utilized to the communications world. It is a backside up. It is the most important community within the nation. There’s 330 stations. It principally serves, and that is the place the elimination of funding for the Company for Public Broadcasting is so shortsighted, it primarily serves rural areas during which the PBS sign often is the solely they get. Additionally they haven’t solely our good kids’s and primetime stuff, they’ve Classroom of the Air persevering with schooling, homeland safety, crop experiences, climate, emergency info. That we’ll take away? This appears foolhardy and appears misguided, primarily as a result of there’s a notion amongst a handful of those that that is someway a blue or a left wing factor when that is the place that for 32 years gave William F. Buckley a present. And it is – I imply it is – and it is – – that present is, by the way in which, remains to be happening and moderated by a conservative.
So, I simply assume that possibly we’re throwing the infant out with the bathwater. And I could not do – let me personalize it. And I did not wish to. John, I could not do any of the movies I’ve achieved with out them being on PBS. I – I might go right into a streaming service or a premium cable tomorrow and get each one of many tens of millions of {dollars} it took to do that in a single pitch. However they would not give me ten years. They need it in a 12 months or a 12 months and a half. And that is – I am unable to do this. Identical with Vietnam. Identical with the Civil Conflict. Identical with jazz. Identical with the nationwide parks. Identical with, you already know, the Roosevelts. All these – nation music. All of these have taken time to incubate. And that has been underneath the system that has one foot tentatively within the market and the opposite proudly out. Form of just like the nationwide parks, or the Declaration of Independence, utilized to the panorama.
These are actually good, American establishments that signify all people from the underside up, which is what it is all the time about. That is the essence of what Thomas Jefferson was speaking about.
JOHN DICKERSON: As somebody who labored so arduous on telling the story of slavery and enslaved individuals in numerous other ways, what did you find out about slavery in America from engaged on this?
KEN BURNS: It is so difficult and so attention-grabbing. I – I feel the factor that was most placing that is come to me is that it was actually clear that our founders, even these founders who owned different human beings, knew that the establishment of slavery was indefensible. It is solely later within the nineteenth century that you’re going to type of make – you attempt to make excuses for why it is OK. And that they are actually wrestling with methods. However there are human beings which are owned by different human beings. It’s totally, very difficult. And you may by no means say a categorical them about anyone. And that is all we do.
Look, I’ve – I’ve made movies concerning the U.S. for all of my skilled life. However I’ve additionally made movies concurrently about us. The entire intimacy of that and all of the majesty and complexity and contradiction and controversy of the U.S. And the factor I’ve discovered, if I’ve discovered something, is that there is solely “us.” There’s is not any “them.” And we’re consistently being advised there is a them. There isn’t a them.
JOHN DICKERSON: If there may be solely “us,” and no “them,” additionally it is a pressure in American historical past, have a look at them, go get them.
KEN BURNS: That is proper. It is the best factor. It is the authoritarians’ playbook.
JOHN DICKERSON: There’s a whole lot of discuss “them” nowadays. Are you hoping to pierce that with this telling of America’s starting?
KEN BURNS: I – I haven’t got a acutely aware want to do that. This suggests a sort of agenda, a sort of a political agenda.
We consciously perceive, as we’re engaged on a movie, what number of – how a lot is rhyming within the current and it adjustments a little bit bit and adjustments that. However we do not ever attempt to put neon indicators going, look how a lot that is a lot like right this moment. We simply wish to let that resonate. And also you go, oh my goodness, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they could have wigs they usually could have breaches. They’re very very similar to us.
JOHN DICKERSON: As a result of if you happen to put an excessive amount of of a thumb on the size, you destroy the story and then you definately kill the ability of the story.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper. It’s a must to let it inform the story. Our job is to be a great storyteller, interval, full cease, finish of sentence.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which implies telling a narrative effectively sufficient that any individual would possibly take a conclusion that is completely totally different than the one –
KEN BURNS: Oh, completely. You – I – you already know, I keep in mind watching this and going, oh, my God, there’s – there’s really locations for all totally different varieties of individuals to search out buy. You understand, this can be a massive – a great story is a giant home with a number of totally different doorways. And we are likely to undergo the entrance door and assume that is it. Any person could also be coming within the aspect door. Any person could also be coming – climbing up and – and breaking in from the second story. Nonetheless you get in, you are in. And that is all you need is the – it – you already know, tales are invites. Like, honey, how was your day, proper? It does not start, I backed slowly down the driveway, avoiding the rubbish can on the curb. You – you simply edit human expertise and that is what we spent the final ten years doing. We had been saying, this story of the American founding, our – our creation fantasy, is as necessary a narrative to get proper as something. And we have spent ten years making an attempt to get it proper.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s the distinction between the Revolutionary Conflict and the American Revolution?
KEN BURNS: Benjamin Rush, who’s the good doctor of the time, one of many signors of The Declaration, stated that when it was over, that the – the American battle is over, however the American revolution is happening. I feel if you happen to settle for the concept of pursuit of happiness, if you happen to settle for the concept of a “extra excellent union,” you understand, as we do in our personal lives and our personal work, in our personal relationships, that it is about course of. That we’re engaged in an ongoing want to realize this stuff. This perfection is what you wish to tilt for. It is unattainable, clearly. However if you happen to’re not engaged within the lively pursuit of perfection, self, relationship, group, nation, world, then you definately’re stopped. You are static. And you are not going ahead. And I feel there’s not an American that doesn’t wish to go ahead.
(END VT)
JIANG: John’s full interview with Ken Burns is posted on our YouTube channel and our net web page. You can too take heed to the on the FACE THE NATION podcast platform.
We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JIANG: Properly, that is it for us right this moment. Thanks for watching. Margaret might be again subsequent week. FOR FACE THE NATION, I am Weijia Jiang.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
