The next is the transcript of the interview with Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Dec. 7, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome again to Face The Nation. We flip now to the highest Democrat on the Home Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes. He joins us this morning from Connecticut. Welcome again to Face The Nation.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Thanks for having me, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You might be one of many few lawmakers proven the labeled model of this September 2 video of the U.S. strikes an alleged drug boat close to Venezuela, 4 strikes in whole, we’ve got discovered. You met with Admiral Bradley, who instructions particular operations as properly. The President of the USA says he’s open to this video being made public. Do you assume it’s important that it turn out to be public, and are you assured it will likely be?
REP. HIMES: I feel it is actually necessary that this video be made public. It is not misplaced on anybody, in fact, that the interpretation of the video, which you already know, six or seven of us had a chance to see final week, broke down exactly on occasion strains. And so that is an occasion by which I feel the American public wants to evaluate for itself. I understand how the general public goes to be react- goes to react as a result of I felt my very own response. You understand, I’ve spent years movies of deadly motion taken, typically within the terrorism context, and this video was profoundly shaking- shaken, and I feel it is necessary for Individuals to see it. As a result of, look, there’s a specific amount of there’s a specific amount of sympathy on the market for going after drug runners, however I feel it is actually necessary that folks see what it appears to be like like when the total pressure the USA navy is turned on two guys who’re clinging to a chunk of wooden and about to go below simply in order that they’ve type of a visceral really feel for what it’s that we’re doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why was it- why did it shake you a lot? What particularly was bothering you?
REP. HIMES: Nicely, you already know, and that is type of the excellence, and there is a lot to unpack right here about whether or not that is a certified navy motion, which it isn’t, and proper on down as to if these had been legitimate- respectable targets, and so they weren’t. However let me return to among the critiques I’ve carried out of different deadly motion. Oftentimes, when the Division of Protection takes a strike towards a terrorist in Yemen or Pakistan or wherever, you watch a video of men absolutely armed with AK-47s and sidearms and bombs and also you title it, and so they’re on their method to do one thing horrible. And on this occasion, you might have had dangerous guys, I’ve little question that these guys had been concerned within the operating of medicine. Now, whether or not they had been operating it to the USA or Europe is one more query. However in that occasion, these guys had been about to die. Had the USA simply walked away, their little piece of wooden would have gone below the waves. And as many occasions as Tom Cotton might say that it would not matter what they had been doing, it issues basically what they had been doing. As a result of below the regulation, and should you spent quarter-hour in regulation faculty, you already know this, below the regulation, if somebody has been struck and is- continues to interact in hostilities, factors a gun at you, has a gun, they might be a respectable goal. But when they’re exterior of fight, they aren’t and attacking them is a violation of the legal guidelines of battle. And these guys, and that is why the American individuals have to see this video. These guys had been, had been barely alive, a lot much less participating in hostilities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Nicely, the DOD regulation of battle handbook appears to hinge a number of that on whether or not the individual is wholly disabled from combating, and that’s the place the Secretary of Protection has used language saying they’re about to return to the struggle. I will play for you what Secretary Hegseth mentioned on the Reagan Discussion board Saturday. He described what was taking place with these 4 strikes on the alleged drug operating boat.
SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PETE HEGSETH ON TAPE: A pair hours later, I used to be advised, hey, there needed to be a reattack, as a result of there have been a pair of us that might nonetheless be within the struggle. Entry to radios, there was a hyperlink up level of one other potential boat, medication had been nonetheless there, they had been actively interacting with them. Needed to take that reattack. I mentioned, Roger, sounds good.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does what Hegseth mentioned match what Admiral Bradley advised you?
REP. HIMES: Nicely, there was a number of lack of readability over precisely what Pete Hegseth’s position right here was, however Pete Hegseth has no credibility on this matter, proper? Bear in mind, every week after this strike, there was a briefing for Congress. Why was a comply with up strike taken? The reply then, within the first week of September, was a comply with up strike was taken as a result of we would have liked to clear the wreckage in order that there wasn’t a hazard to navigation. That was rationalization primary. Clarification quantity two, proper earlier than we watched the video, was that they could have had a radio, and so they might need been radioing a ship, and so they might need been making an attempt to recuperate the cocaine. After which if you really watch the video, you notice they do not have a radio. They’re barely hanging on and never slipping beneath the waves. Then we get this factor of how they’re making an attempt to proper the boat. This was a couple of 40 foot boat that had simply been hit with an enormous piece of munitions. The conflagration most likely destroyed all the pieces in that boat. However, oh, possibly they could have swum below, gotten a radio, most likely waterlogged, and radioed a ship that we’re not even certain was there. So what we have had is a sequence of shifting explanations. Oh, and together with the fog of battle, proper? You understand that Hegseth mentioned, properly, they took the second strike due to the fog of battle. There was no fog. The navy watched this boat very rigorously, or I should not even say, boat, they watched the wreckage of the boat very rigorously for a protracted time frame earlier than they took the second strike. So, look, what Pete Hegseth says about this strike has zero credibility at this level.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you’ve gotten confidence in Admiral Bradley?
REP. HIMES: You understand Admiral Bradley, this was my first assembly with him. Anybody who has ever labored with Admiral Bradley will inform you that he has a storied profession and that he’s a person of deep, deep integrity. And albeit, I’ve no motive to doubt that. What it raises is, what occurs when an apparently good man like Admiral Bradley is positioned in a context the place he is aware of that if he countermands an order that he’s maybe uncomfortable with, it is extremely doubtless that he will probably be fired. When he works for a man, Pete Hegseth, who wrote a e-book about how we should not observe the legal guidelines of battle, about how we have to be deadly in [unintelligible]. It is fascinating to consider how a very good man in that context possibly does one thing that, if he weren’t in that context, he may not do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Nicely, Senator Tom Cotton, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, mentioned there have been dozens of JAG law- legal professionals observing all of this. On NBC this morning he mentioned all 11 individuals on the suspected drug smuggling boat had been legitimate targets as a result of the U.S. had excessive confidence they had been a part of a overseas terrorist group. Are you aware, had been these excessive stage cartel members?
REP. HIMES: No, in fact not. In fact not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who had been they, if the U.S. had excessive confidence–
REP. HIMES: You assume Pablo Escobar back- properly, initially, initially, let’s be tremendous clear about this. I do not assume we knew the identities of any of the individuals within the boat. We would have identified one or two, I do not know, however we actually did not know the identities of all 11. So no person can characterize who all these individuals in any of those boats are. Now, I’ve sufficient confidence within the intelligence neighborhood to know that these are most likely not guys out fishing or guys out, you already know, being vacationers and stuff. They’re virtually actually operating medication. However this actually issues given that you mentioned. You understand, if you are going to occupy an immense quantity of the American naval fight functionality, you’d wish to imagine that you are going after the leaders, the cartel leaders, the- the kingpins, as they are saying. What we’re doing right here is we’re taking out the equal of the nook drug seller within the Bronx, proper? Which, by the best way, we should always arrest the nook drug seller within the Bronx. However the principle motive we do that’s to go after the kingpins who, I promise you, are sitting in very comfy villas proper now in Colombia and Venezuela and in all places, and watching as a lot of the USA Navy is devoted to taking out their lowest stage workers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So I hear you saying they weren’t on an inside navy goal checklist for prime worth people. That is what I hear, what you are saying.
REP. HIMES: Nicely, that is an fascinating query. I am under no circumstances satisfied that there’s a checklist of people. Now, that is what we do within the terrorism world, proper? We designate excessive worth targets. We designate people. I’ve no motive to imagine, and actually, I doubt that there are any people on the checklist anyplace. What we’re doing, and I am not going to get terribly particular about it, for apparent causes, however what we’re doing is we’re choosing up that this boat could also be carrying medication, and to the administration, it would not matter who’s in that boat, because- and look, they’re saying this, as a result of if this boat is definitely carrying medication, then we are able to strike it. So no, I do not assume there’s a checklist of people. I do not assume we’ve got any thought who exactly the people in these boats are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In order I perceive it, these are signature strikes. That is an intelligence evaluation based mostly on alerts intelligence saying that is who we imagine these people to be. You understand, a few of these defenders of the Trump coverage, like conservative columnists, have argued it is a precedent that was set by the Obama administration, which used signature strikes to kill alleged al Qaeda operatives, together with a U.S. citizen at one level in Yemen. Have they got some extent right here that the drone coverage has lengthy allowed the killing of suspected criminals, even with out due course of?
REP. HIMES: Nicely, there’s a few actually necessary distinctions, and you will keep in mind that the Obama administration, there was a number of debate over whether or not signature strikes had been okay or not. A very powerful distinction is that Congress approved the battle on terror. There was an authorization for the usage of navy pressure. The unique sin of this complete factor, whether or not you assume we must be losing these guys or not, the unique sin is that there isn’t any congressional authorization. After which within the Obama administration, they did have a listing of people, proper? Typically excessive worth targets, or HVTs as we have referred to them. After which the query was, when you’ve got an HVT, a excessive worth goal, in a jeep in northern Pakistan, and there is a man subsequent to that HVT, you already know, how do you are feeling about taking that strike? You wish to take down the excessive worth man, however what concerning the younger man subsequent to him? Nicely, the younger man has an AK 47 and the younger man was really arranging for the switch of explosives. You’ve got that dialog, and you then determine whether or not you are gonna take the strike. Proper now what we’re doing, and once more, don’t- I do not assume that there is a checklist of people anyplace. They’re simply saying that boat is carrying medication. And regardless that navy is just not approved by the Congress of the USA, we’re taking out the boat, and we do not give a rattling about who’s on it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Nicely, and if you say “I do not assume,” you’re a member of the Gang of Eight, so presumably that info must be shared with you if it does exist. I wish to ask you earlier than I allow you to go. Signalgate, individuals might bear in mind a couple of months in the past, the Trump- a Trump official added a journalist to an internet group on Sign and shared superior info of an upcoming bombing operation in Yemen. The Pentagon Inspector Common mentioned Hegseth’s actions risked operational safety and violated federal legal guidelines on file preserving. Hegseth mentioned he’d do the identical factor another time. Are your Republican colleagues saying in personal that they’ve issues with what occurred?
REP. HIMES: Completely, they’re saying it in personal. In public, in fact, they’re saying that it was excellent exoneration, proper? That this report, and also you learn the important thing line, that this report that mentioned that the Secretary of Protection put his troops within the mission in danger, that that is whole exoneration. Now, I did not hear the remark about I might do that once more. But when Pete Hegseth mentioned he would try this again- and look, once more, you do not have to be a navy skilled to grasp that sharing operational particulars earlier than an operation is a extremely, actually, actually dangerous thought. If Pete Hegseth mentioned that, that he would try this once more, you already know, he is simply reinforcing what everyone knows, which is that he has completely no enterprise in that job. One of the crucial delicate and tough jobs to do in the USA authorities is being carried out by any person who put his personal individuals and the mission in danger.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He mentioned he lives life with out remorse on the Reagan Discussion board, that was the phrase, to be extra precise. However Congressman Himes, at all times good to have you ever on this system. I am going to have to depart it there for right now. We’ll be proper again.
