The next is the transcript of an interview with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and “CBS Night Information” co-anchor John Dickerson that may air on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on July 6, 2025.
JOHN DICKERSON: So Ken, lets say it is July 3, 1776, what is occurring in America?
KEN BURNS: Nicely, this home is empty. What’s occurring in America is that in Philadelphia, the Second Continental Congress are debating this Declaration of Independence {that a} committee of 5 has drawn up. They’ve handed it off to Thomas Jefferson, one of many youngest, however who has an important felicity, somebody stated, with language to draft since you’ve received a pretty big geopolitical state of affairs happening that individuals do not essentially recognize that we have got the French who’re type of excited by perhaps serving to us as a result of they’re so anti-British. However initially, you need to say that you are a half after which you need to win a battle which is even more durable to return by. And so we’re right here on this, you realize, the early, early summer season of 1776 debating, and the following day we’ll signal this factor, and we’ll change into america of America. Somebody had advised earlier in June in a newspaper anonymously signed Republicus, that we should have an actual identify, and advised it ought to be america of America simply, just some weeks earlier than it is, it is a fairly great second.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was America United although in 1776 after they had been about to make this huge step?
KEN BURNS: No, we would been preventing for a yr and 1 / 4. Lexington and Harmony are as- is, is in April of ’75 there- it is a civil warfare that is happening. Greater than seemingly you is perhaps a loyalist. You’ve got lived below the, you realize, the British constitutional monarchy. , there is no higher type of authorities on earth. Why would I danger something for this, you realize, upstart concepts which have zero likelihood of success? And what occurs is that this doc that Jefferson principally crafts is a doc that’s distilling a century of enlightenment pondering into one sentence, the second sentence of the Declaration, which is, you realize, subsequent to I really like you, I am unable to consider a greater sentence within the English language.
JOHN DICKERSON: America- you name the Revolutionary interval a civil warfare.
KEN BURNS: It’s.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was that at all times your conception of the–
KEN BURNS: No.
JOHN DICKERSON: How did you come to think about it that method?
KEN BURNS: I feel as a result of there are not any pictures and there is no newsreels, and so they’re in, you realize, stockings and breeches and powdered wigs. There is a sense of distance from them. I feel we are also so proud, rightfully, of the facility of the large concepts that we we simply do not need to get into the truth that it was this bloody civil warfare, patriots in opposition to loyalists, disaffected folks, Native folks, enslaved and free folks inside it, international powers which can be in the end engaged on this. This can be a huge world warfare by the tip. I feel we maybe, are fearful that these huge concepts are diminished, and so they’re not, in any method. They’re, the truth is, change into much more inspiring that they emerge from the turmoil. You might even have a look at our civil warfare and say, it is probably not a civil warfare, not a number of civilian deaths, and it is a sectional warfare, however the revolution, you positively don’t need to be in New Jersey or South Carolina, as a result of individuals are in type of open revolt. Individuals, there are guerilla actions. There’s little assassinations, taking issues out in your neighbor who’s a loyalist, when the Patriots are dominant, taking issues out in your neighbor who’s a patriot, when the British and the Loyalists are dominant in a selected space. It is actually, actually unhealthy.
JOHN DICKERSON: How ought to we take into consideration the Declaration of Independence, this era in America, in our current day?
KEN BURNS: Initially, I feel the American Revolution is an important occasion because the delivery of Christ in all of world historical past.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why?
KEN BURNS: I imply, it turned the world the wrong way up, which is the cliche. Earlier than this second, everybody was a topic, basically below the rule of any person else. We had created, on this second, a really model new factor known as a citizen and this has had highly effective results. It’ll set in movement revolutions for the following two plus centuries, all all over the world, all trying to form of give a brand new expression to this concept that each one males are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with sure unalienable rights, and that is an enormous, huge deal in world historical past. So what occurs right here is, I suppose you may, you realize, miss the purpose, and say it is a quarrel between Englishmen, however it’s the starting of one thing completely new on this planet, and that’s one thing to have fun and to grasp too, that it comes out of a lot division that is happening between the states. Individuals in New Hampshire and Georgia are, they’re from completely different international locations. They consider various things. That you may have the divisions of loyalists and patriots. You might have this, all of the issues which can be roiling in these colonies, and perceive that out of that, we might nonetheless work out a method to come collectively.
JOHN DICKERSON: People assume they’re fairly divided proper now. They weren’t practically as divided as they had been throughout the Revolutionary interval.
KEN BURNS: This is the straightforward factor, we’re at all times divided, so it ebbs and flows a bit of bit, however we’re at all times have huge variations. , Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal will not be met with common approval. The Civil Conflict kills 750,000 People, we predict, over the difficulty of slavery. We have now our personal revolution. There are many durations, the Vietnam interval, after we’re so significantly divided. So I feel there’s a bit of little bit of rooster little, you realize, oh, the sky is falling as a result of it is now. Issues are at all times worse now than they ever had been. The one- the explanation why historians, and God is aware of, I am an beginner historian, really feel a type of optimism, is as a result of there’s one thing acquainted. There’s, you realize, the Bible says there’s nothing new below the solar, human nature basically does not change, and that is true. What’s nice concerning the Revolution is, for a second, issues really, there was one thing new on this planet, and that is the factor that we have to use. That is the leverage now we have to convey us again to the flexibility to talk to 1 one other, to grasp the way you resolve your variations, versus the form of soup of anger and mistrust that appear to be, you realize, in all places now.
JOHN DICKERSON: John Dos Passos stated that when males, in occasions of the place males really feel fast sand below their ft, historical past is a lifeline to the- from the previous to the current. What lifeline do you see from the Revolutionary interval, if we’re at all times divided, what is the lifeline to the current from the Revolutionary interval?
KEN BURNS: That is a beautiful phrase. I feel it is manifest in so many alternative methods. Clearly, we’re the one nation, we all know precisely after we had been born, and we are the nation that is held collectively, not by language, not by faith, not by even geography, we’re held collectively by phrases. And so I feel, to me, it at all times comes again to phrases, and why being right here, you start to appreciate the unbelievable energy and import of these phrases that we maintain these truths to be self evident. And you realize, John, there was nothing self evident about these phrases. As somebody stated in an earlier movie we made about, about Benjamin Franklin, that is the attorneys dodge, proper? It is like there’s nothing self-evident about this. However should you say it is self-evident, we identical to we, in fact, all agree that is true, after which say one thing that’s so new on this planet that it’s nonetheless inspiring. I imply, I’d usually be house on July 4 studying to my youngsters the Declaration of Independence, as a result of it has a lot import and a lot that means, even as we speak. And I feel it does not take as a lot effort as we predict it does to reinvest in these issues that we share in widespread.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s, what are, what’s a citizen’s obligation now?
KEN BURNS: A residents obligation now is identical because it’s ever been, and that is an important factor. There is a great phrase a bit of bit later from the well-known phrases the place Jefferson says, All expertise has proven that mankind are extra disposed to undergo whereas evils are sufferable, that means all of us type of have gravitated to be below authoritarian rule. , the trains run on time, or we get no less than this, however we will require of you to be a citizen one thing extra. It is received to be energetic. The Pursuit of Happiness is will not be the acquisition of issues in a market of objects, however lifelong studying in a market of concepts. That is what the founders stated, to be virtuous, to stay a virtuous life, to repeatedly educate your self, is what was required to maintain this republic and I feel that is what we have gotten away from. Every little thing is form of all individualized. We’re all free brokers. We do not notice that freedom, the factor that we tout, is not only what I would like, but additionally that is intention with what we want. And I feel what occurs is that after we research these phrases, we will return to the sense of newness and freshness that they represented and rededicate ourselves, and meaning me for me, and also you for you, to this concept that the pursuit of happiness is about lifelong studying. It is about changing into ever extra educated, to the accountability of citizenship and that is an enormous, enormous accountability, not simply to take your feed, not simply to go together with this circulate, not simply to get your info that form of ratifies what you already thought, however to truly discover what my neighbor thinks.
JOHN DICKERSON: Being an American, as Jefferson noticed it, because the founders noticed it, was a seamless obligation to have interaction with its historical past.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper, and that is actually essential. With the intention to type the federal government, they needed to attain again via the Center Ages, via the Darkish Ages, again to antiquity, to convey up these concepts like advantage and temperance and moderation and all the issues that each one of them had been searching for. I imply, the wonderful factor is, we’re right here at Thomas Jefferson’s home, however we do not have a rustic with out his phrases. But in addition we do not have a rustic with out George Washington. And but, we find out about all of those males. They’re deeply flawed in lots of essential methods. And I feel as we speak, in our binary tradition, you realize, the place all the things’s a one or a zero or it is a purple state or a blue state, it is my or the freeway, we have forgotten that it is attainable to tolerate, as we do amongst with the folks we love, their strengths and their weaknesses. So heroism will not be perfection, proper? The Greeks advised us that heroism was a negotiation inside somebody, generally a warfare between any person’s nice strengths and their nice flaws, like Achilles had his heel and his hubris to go together with his nice strengths. And so I feel that if we will take a historic view that allows us to see a Jefferson and a Washington in these very difficult understanding of them, then it is attainable to then breathe, to have some room to grasp who we are actually, who we had been then, and the place we is perhaps, which is, in fact, an important factor, all of the anxiousness about this current second is basically not a lot concerning the current second, however about will we survive, the place will we be and and you’ll return to this second and be utterly inspirited by risk.
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it vital to grasp the failings of the founders in order that they change into extra actual and subsequently their classes are extra accessible?
KEN BURNS: I feel so. I feel we all know what a superficial story means; its half life is so insignificant if you put all the things into form of cartoon stuff, into the white hat and the black hat and what meaning. Sure, if you perceive, Keats stated that Shakespeare possessed this factor known as destructive functionality that you may maintain in pressure somebody’s strengths and somebody’s weaknesses for so long as you presumably might after which, even then, you did not essentially need to decide. So you’ll be able to perceive George Washington as flawed as rash. He rides out on the battlefield of creating unhealthy selections as a common. And but, with out him, we shouldn’t have a rustic. , we’re talking English or we’re talking French or Spanish, no matter it’s, however, however we’re a distinct, we’re a distinct place with out his, the management that he exhibited, and naturally, that management was exhibited most spectacularly when he resigned his army fee after which left the presidency as a result of he was giving up energy and setting in movement an American instance, that it’s not the individual, it is the legislation. It is the- it is the type of authorities and these kinds of issues have held us in good stead for 249 years.
JOHN DICKERSON: You’ve got named so many cases wherein, principally America was thought into being, in different phrases, a set of concepts, simply phrases, simply the stuff that was happening in a bunch of heads of individuals ended up shaping a complete nation, and as you are saying, a course of historical past.
KEN BURNS: So it is not simply Jefferson’s phrases, proper? You’ve got have earlier than it, in January, this Englishman who comes ashore at Philadelphia, half useless. He is a failure in all the things in life, and he writes this little, tiny pamphlet known as Widespread Sense. His identify is Thomas Paine, and he provides simply spectacular, nearly poetic voice to this impulse. Like heretofore, individuals are undecided they need to separate from Britain, undecided about independence. They definitely want to consider it is actually not the king’s fault, it is actually Parliament’s fault. And rapidly, he reminds folks what monarchical and authoritarian rule is all about, and that you realize, this concept that you may set up your self by advantage of your loved ones for era after era is not proper, and so a lot of phrases earlier, Sam Adams is retaining all people alive to their grievances, he stated, that is his job, proper? He is, he is a failure as a brewer and as a tax collector, however boy, he is actually good at retaining folks upset at what the British are doing, or perhaps not even doing, however could do, proper? And so phrases are vastly essential, and we’re the sum whole of the phrases we have talked about, somewhat than simply, essentially at all times the actions or the cash or the place or the place or the celeb. It is, it is, you realize, Washington is fascinating in that he is additionally an important judger of character. He is aware of how you can choose subordinate expertise like you’ll be able to’t consider, like you’ll be able to’t consider. I imply, even this committee that basically (INAUDIBLE) by his age, that- that Benjamin Franklin is the form of the senior of all seniors. However Adam says, you realize, to Jefferson, you write it as a result of, like, I am brief and fats and ugly and other people don’t love me. I am obnoxious, however you might have this nice felicity of, with phrases.
JOHN DICKERSON: We’re right here in Jefferson’s home. What if Tom walked in? What would you need to ask him?
KEN BURNS: Oh, my goodness, a number of them are deeply private questions on his personal life and what he could not cope with. He knew, as everybody knew, that slavery was immoral. It is solely later generations which can be going to attempt to justify it because the abolition motion grows within the nineteenth century, we will need to make Black folks inferior in all of this. However there’s a- there is a sense that, you know- he- Jefferson himself stated slavery was like holding a wolf by the ears. You did not prefer it, however you did not dare let go. I would need to ask him, deeply query, why do not you let it go? Your neighbor freed his slaves, your cousin freed his slaves. They each urged you to do the identical factor, and also you could not do this. You temporized. To procure extra statuary and extra wine from Europe and- and what was that about? As a result of, in fact, you may articulate these common, self evident truths, and but could not stay that out in his personal lifetime.
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you able to speak concerning the genius and brilliance of his phrases with out sitting proper in the midst of Jefferson’s proudly owning of slaves, enslaved folks? You- are you able to speak concerning the two- I imply, are you able to speak about Jefferson’s phrases with out speaking about–
KEN BURNS: No, I feel that is the essential factor. And- and someway we’ve- we have gotten to the concept you simply do not need to mess with the good things. And let’s simply pretend- pay no consideration to that man behind- like you’ll be able to’t do this. A very good story is an effective story is an effective story. And it is a actually good a part of the story. It is difficult, it is darkish. There are human beings on this home who’re owned by an individual who has articulated common rights for everybody. And what’s so nice is that the vagueness of the phrases has allowed all people to plow via and make it their very own, not simply right here, however throughout the stuff so- so when he says pursuit of happiness, that could be the important thing phrase. Once we say a extra excellent union within the Structure in a while, that could be the important thing phrase that that is course of that we’re engaged in. And so perhaps the- the poetry, but additionally the vagueness of the phrases, have opened a door which have allowed girls to return via, which have allowed enslaved folks to have citizenship, which have expanded in so many alternative methods and all all over the world, that that’s- that is progress. That is, you realize, this is- and in addition the course of human occasions, proper? The place you do not flick the change, and it is all excellent, all of sudden. And so I feel going again and understanding them for the deep undertow that is current and generally actually discomforting undertow about it’s okay. Nothing is diminished. Nothing is diminished. Actually, I feel it is made extra acquainted. what? When it is- if you’re in a dialog with a buddy and the buddy says, you realize, I ought to have stated this earlier than, however I actually hate this. Or, you realize what, I did this, there’s one thing all of the sudden, there’s dimension now to the chances of the connection, one to the opposite. And I feel after we look again and do not attempt to sanitize it. Do not make a Madison Avenue model of- of- of our previous, however have fun the grittiness, and I feel, on this case, the violence of the American Revolution, we do a service to these concepts that we predict have to be protected. I mean- what- this isn’t concepts which can be fastened in amber. , that is, this is- that is gritty, gritty stuff. Individuals died. Plenty of folks died preventing for this in simply horrific struggles when the principle type of killing was a bayonet. That is not enjoyable.
JOHN DICKERSON: Extra genuine, extra true, and subsequently extra actual and accessible.
KEN BURNS: Yeah. After which I feel extra highly effective. That is- what we’re searching for is that means. On the finish of the day, it is all about that means. And so the tales that we inform, the more true, the extra difficult they get, really, the that means will increase. It is not decreased. It is solely an authoritarian that needs to, you realize, within the previous Soviet factor, the place rapidly that {photograph} now not has so and so in it, he is now not there watching the Could Day parade. They’ve minimize him out as a result of he is out of favor. We do not want to try this on this nation. We are able to really be large enough to just accept these contradictions inside our founding and inside ourselves. Jefferson is definitely the embodiment of deep and- and really difficult, you realize, variations, inner psychology.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Trump has issued an govt motion wherein he says principally, historical past has gotten out of steadiness. Says that the American authorities both funds it via museums or nationwide parks, and he stated as a substitute that this federal function in historical past ought to as a substitute concentrate on the greatness of the achievements and the progress of the American folks. So President Trump thinks there’s an imbalance in the way in which we speak about historical past. How do you see that?
KEN BURNS: I do not see the imbalance. I feel we have to have fun the greatness of the American folks. The greatness of the American folks comes from telling these difficult tales, and that is an excellent story. A very good story is an effective story. That is what you are searching for. You do not need to simply say it in any other case, it is simply form of slogans that are- which can be put up on the wall. We need to really feel that we all know who Thomas Jefferson is. We have to perceive the inner struggles that Abraham Lincoln had. We have now to grasp what was going via Rosa Parks’ thoughts when she, you realize, refused to surrender her seat on the bus. This, by no means takes away from the glory, it simply makes the story fuller and richer and and permits buy for everybody you desire a historical past to be difficult as a result of it provides all people an opportunity to personal or have entry to it. There’s my door the place I am going via. There is a great scholar, Maggie Blackhawk in our movie, who says, after our scene on the Declaration of Independence, that it is deeply important to folks on the margins. That these phrases that don’t embody them. They don’t embody girls, they don’t embody the poor, they don’t embody any enslaved or free African People. They don’t embody Native People. However the phrases themselves are so inspirational that they start to recommend a a lot bigger and extra, what we might say, type of American polity. {That a} bunch of us all collectively, of various varieties, doing a lot of various things and pursuing happiness, this- this concept of advantage and lifelong studying.
JOHN DICKERSON: Alongside these strains, that- the tales you inform on this documentary and the individuals who inform it are- there’s an actual range. Was that an essential a part of your storytelling?
KEN BURNS: Completely, I feel that, you realize, we are inclined to have the Revolution, we consider it as simply the blokes in Philadelphia, which is basically essential, pondering nice ideas and writing them down. The boldface names, if you’ll. What we wished to do is take these boldface names and make them not simply type of inaccessible, however actual. So you may perceive dimension to them. However then additionally notice they’re scores of different those that have voices and which can be essential, and so they, you realize, they’re .01% of individuals had their portraits painted. That does not imply that everyone else did not exist, or all people else did not do one thing, significantly should you gave your life on Bunkers Hill to start out this new nation, or- or- or- at Yorktown, or at Brandywine or Lengthy Island. , simply because you do not have a portrait painted, it doesn’t suggest that you simply’re not any person. So we’re making an attempt to present everybody a voice, and in order that what you might have is a refrain. So all of it goes again to music. At all times goes again to music that, you realize, Lincoln talks about, the mystic chords of reminiscence. These usually are not ropes. These are celestial chords that- that the refrain of People has an emotional energy to it, that the singularity of simply making it about an important man idea. You- the issue has been in that, at times- and should need to do with Trump’s initiatives, is that we’ve- so as to inform a backside up story, we generally thrown out a high down story. There isn’t any want. You are able to do a high down and a backside up. And that is really essentially the most vigorous and energetic and strongest type of historical past is after they meet. When- as you’re in a tent a number of 100 yards from Rochambeau’s tent outdoors Yorktown, you being George Washington, that you simply additionally know that that group that is taking Redoubt Quantity 10 has, led by Lafayette, consists of Alexander Hamilton, but additionally has Joseph Plumb Martin, who signed up a pair days after the declaration at age 15, and has simply seen unbelievable motion and violence and no matter, is dashing the abattis, the spiked logs which can be going to guard them, together with Rhode Islanders who’ve been promised their freedom after the warfare is over, each runaway and enslaved Rhode Island- I imply, that is who takes Redoubt Quantity 10 that allows us, together with Redoubt Quantity 9 that the French take to roll the large weapons in to make Cornwallis painfully conscious, if he has not been conscious of it at to the- as much as that time that his trigger is misplaced, and can precipitate the give up that may come a number of days later.
JOHN DICKERSON: Variety of voice and storytelling was essential to you, that is also below assault in the mean time. The president principally is making an attempt to take away all efforts to maintain range in thoughts. Is there one thing that’s misplaced in that?
KEN BURNS: Nicely, you realize, there is a power in a wagon wheel of all of the completely different spokes into the hub. We’re all searching for the hub, regardless of the hub is. Which means, you realize, one thing that pulls us collectively, that refrain, that is what we’re all about. And in order that the power of that wheel has to do with having the spokes and having a large number of views. The impulse for some is to say there’s just one perspective, and that is true of many alternative issues, and it is not simply from a high down, form of a way, so let’s make this less complicated. It is also- lots of people mistake, and what we have tried to do is be liberated from any vogue of what is known as historiography. Sorry, to you realize, on a Sunday morning, make the phrases so huge, nevertheless it’s form of the fashions of the way in which we research historical past. Generally say it is received to be solely from this angle. It is received to be Freudian, or it is received to be Marxist financial, or it is received to be symbolic, or it is received to be, you realize, post-modern or no matter. The factor is, you do not want that. You- all it’s essential do is say, if a child was concerned, I need to perceive what that child felt. If an important, you realize, person who George Washington, I need to know what he- what he did and what he felt. Did he actually need to trip out into the battle at Kips Bay and danger his personal life. I imply, at one time at Princeton, he does the identical factor, and his personal aides are overlaying their eyes, afraid they will see their commander in chief- if he is shot it is throughout. There isn’t any nation, proper? After which watch him make errors, and on the similar time, see the way in which he held just like the strongest of glues the nation collectively because it’s going.
JOHN DICKERSON: You say historical past is the perfect instructor now we have. What did engaged on this documentary concerning the Revolution educate you?
KEN BURNS: , right here’s- this is the- the lead that has been buried. That is an important experiment in human authorities that the world has seen. And we- we bury that mild below a bushel on a regular basis, both via our inner doubts, both via our struggles with each other, via this type of binary sense of, you realize, I am mistaken. You are- you realize, you are proper. I am proper, you are mistaken. No matter it is perhaps, we- we’ve- we have missed an important factor that the creation of america of America was one of many nice issues which have ever taken place in human historical past, and that is one thing to have fun.
JOHN DICKERSON: So in wanting previously, you found one thing that ought to be and is, and also you’re seeing very a lot alive as we speak.
KEN BURNS: That is what makes historical past the perfect instructor, as a result of it lets you perceive that there- it wasn’t at all times some stunning, nice time beforehand. It is at all times been difficult. There’s at all times been monumental divisions, and we at all times have had a capability by utilizing the pressure of the system we created. I imply, these guys on the Constitutional Conference, they’re worrying continually about, you know- how to- properly, what if this occurs? Nicely, what if that occurred? How can we defend about this? How can we defend about that? And so they’re all making an attempt to, I imply, except the Preamble, the Structure is awfully simply boilerplate language. It is an working system, proper? However it’s so good, and the truth that it is instantly amended, it would not have even been in a position to enter efficient use with out the Invoice of Rights that had been form of basically codifying what all people thought that they had been preventing for over the past many, many, a few years. And keep in mind, it is a battle that is been, you realize, with the British the wrestle has been happening from properly earlier than Lexington and Harmony, with the Boston Bloodbath or the Tea Social gathering or different, you realize, acts of collective disobedience. However in April 19, 1775, it begins. And it is not over till 71 when the give up occurs within the fall, so six and a half years. However it’s not going to be until the final British troop leaves, one other two years, and the Treaty of Paris is formalized. I see you are speaking about an enormous time frame that we’re engaged in a revolution, and there is a lot of stuff happening.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why did you initially need to make this?
KEN BURNS: I believed it was not possible to do. Once we had been ending our movie on the Vietnam Conflict in 2015- we started this when Barack Obama had, you realize, 13 months left in his pres- presidency. Individuals usually say, why the Revolution and why now? I stated, it is a actually lengthy now. I- having accomplished the Civil Conflict and World Conflict Two and Vietnam, I noticed the final huge remaining factor was to form of peel away the layers of sentimentality and nostalgia that has smothered the revolution and to attempt to get at that. And I did not assume, as a result of there are not any pictures and newsreels, that we might be capable to do this, however I keep in mind seeing a map of the Ia Drang Valley in Vietnam, a type of animated, nearly 3-D map that we had made. And I went, wait this- this might simply be simply following the British West in Lengthy Island in the direction of Brooklyn. And if you- we will do that, then now we have a way- we will deal with the work like they’re pictures. We are able to take stay cinematography and deal with them like they’re work. We are able to gather reenacting footage, to not substitute, you realize, telling this our conventional method of telling a battle, however as grist for the mill of how we might make it come alive. And all of these issues, graphics and maps and stay cinematography and work and drawings, all of them, I all of the sudden had this factor. I keep in mind simply turning to Sarah Botstein and saying, we’re doing the revolution subsequent. Now, subsequent meant 10 years, or nearly 10 years.
JOHN DICKERSON: What layer of sentimentality concerning the revolution to you is most harmful to the true historical past or to the complexity of histories?
KEN BURNS: I feel essentially the most harmful factor is to not perceive how extremely violent it was and what number of completely different events had been concerned. We would wish to consider that our revolution is our personal great factor that we did, however we won’t do it with out the French. This can be a world warfare on the finish, wherein not solely the- France is on our aspect, however so is Spain and the Netherlands, however they’ve ulterior motives. They actually simply need to see the British, who’ve the most important and most far off empire, diminish. So you’ve got received all these great competing issues that individuals go, “it is too difficult.” It is not too difficult. All people will get it. If you happen to can watch Shogun and determine it out, should you can watch The Bear, should you can watch Succession, you realize, it is all- we all know how you can deal with difficult tales. And I type of resent the concept we’re advised that we won’t. That for an important tales that People might ever have, that’s the story of us, not simply the higher case U.S., however of us intimately, that someway now we have to dumb it down. Generally- someway now we have to form of sanitize it. By some means now we have to make it freed from the “sure, buts.” All of life is a “sure, however.”
JOHN DICKERSON: What about consideration? Do you also- What about consideration? The concept that folks simply do not have the time for all this?
KEN BURNS: Once I made the Civil Conflict collection, folks stated, oh, that is actually good, however nobody’s going to observe it as a result of there are these items known as MTV movies, and so they’re like, two minutes, and so they’ve eroded the eye span. Individuals have at all times had their consideration drawn to little, tiny, frivolous issues. At all times, ceaselessly. And so they’ve additionally been capable of notice that the best that means accrues in length, that the work you are proudest of, the relationships you care essentially the most about, have benefited out of your similar attention- sustained consideration. So what can we do now on this tsunami of content material? We binge. What? You imply, you have a look at one thing for days on finish, the entire thing time and again? We- the eye is there. It’s true that there are many distractions to that focus. However the way in which we self, you realize, medicate from the sheer quantity of stuff there’s, is by saying, I am going to decide on to observe this for a extremely very long time. I see that in my youngsters who do TikTok stuff, however they will sit there and watch 4 seasons of no matter it’s in a single sitting. So I am not frightened that there is not an viewers anymore on the market for 12 hours on- on form of the Rosetta Stone, of what- of the place we got here from, what our delivery was about.
JOHN DICKERSON: Going again to this concept of ongoing nourishment of historical past, half of- return to the revolution to be taught who we’re, now. Do you ever consider this work as an intervention in- we have gotten- folks don’t- folks do not reread the Declaration each fourth of July, as Thomas Jefferson wished. Individuals, in your telling, appear to have overpassed among the elements of our founding. Possibly we do not even know them as a result of we have been advised completely different sorts of tales. Is that this an intervention?
KEN BURNS: No. Intervention imposes between the storyteller, that will be us, and the story we’re making an attempt to inform and our viewers some form of bigger highfalutin objective. A very good story is an effective story is an effective story, and that is all we’re excited by doing. I do nonetheless learn the Declaration of Independence to my youngsters now, grandchildren each single Fourth of July. I feel there are many People who do this. Actually, there are many individuals who go, nice a break day and sizzling canine and hamburgers, what could possibly be higher? And inform me, what could possibly be higher than that? It is okay. All people likes the fireworks show. There’s- there’s nonetheless it’s- as soon as once more, it is again to this concept of refrain. The Fourth of July is my favourite vacation, since you sit there on a blanket on a subject taking a look at these fireworks with all these different folks at midnight, and also you share with them in widespread that we conform to, principally, a sentence in a doc written, you realize, by a Virginian who lived right here, you realize, 249 years in the past. That is actually highly effective stuff. After which John Adams, he stated it, you realize, that is so nice, we ought to be celebrating this yearly with bonfires and fireworks and demonstrations. And we do. We adopted precisely what they advised us to do. So, the truth that it may be misinterpreted by some, that is at all times going to be the case. Manipulated by others, this can at all times be the case. Type of, you realize, genuinely embraced, however for the mistaken causes, this can at all times be the case. However we still- we all know, we perceive that we maintain these truths to be self-evident, though they weren’t, that each one males are created equal, that they’re endowed by their creator with sure unalienable rights, that amongst these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Would not get any higher than that.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s your- How do you obtain the polling that reveals individuals are having completely different views of what it means to be patriotic, and perhaps even being patriotic in any respect is one thing, perhaps, any person does not need to be.
KEN BURNS: Nicely, I feel- I discover that, significantly amongst a youthful era, that they’ve misplaced a type of reference to the glories of the American experiment due to what they’ve seen. , should you’re seven or eight years previous and also you see George Floyd murdered, you’ve got received a distinct sense of how a lot we have delivered on these authentic guarantees or not. I feel this is- these are ebbing and flowing figures that we won’t spend an excessive amount of of our time being caught up with. We have now to spend extra of our time working in the direction of it, the pursuit of happiness. It might contain any person or teams of somebodies telling our tales. It might be, for any person else, it is perhaps serving to out at a meals kitchen. It might be any person else going to highschool and of their type of scholarship, in science or within the humanities, have discovered one thing new that we want. Possibly it is in enterprise, the place you’ve got found some product. Or perhaps it is in public service, which is a vital a part of all of this. And that public service will not be essentially the president. George Washington understood that the perfect workplace was citizen. That is why he resigned. So perhaps you start and it is your college board, perhaps it is you realize, you are doing one thing native. However I feel that we’re- the polling generally displays only a explicit anxiousness, and these are shifting on a regular basis, on a regular basis. And it- and I can inform you, simply within the time it is taken us to work on this movie, how a lot issues have- have modified and gone again and adjusted once more. And it does not matter, Democrat, Republican, purple state, blue state. These are superficial, binary concerns. The extra essential factor is that’s the- that is the tip of the iceberg, proper? It is the- it is the massiveness of what is beneath it. And I feel lots of people nonetheless share it, and all you want is a narrative or an anthem or a refrain to form of present the alternatives to reconfigure. That is what it’s.
JOHN DICKERSON: You’ve got advised rather a lot of- You’ve got advised a number of your tales on PBS. PBS is below risk.
KEN BURNS: All of them, all of them.
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you frightened about the way forward for PBS?
KEN BURNS: In fact, I’m, and I’ve at all times been frightened about it. Within the Nineties I feel I testified within the Home or the Senate in Appropriations or Authorization concerning the endowments or concerning the Company for Public Broadcasting a half dozen occasions.
JOHN DICKERSON: Make the case for PBS.
KEN BURNS: It’s the Declaration of Independence utilized to the communications world. It is a backside up. It is the most important community within the nation. There’s 330 stations. It principally serves – and that is the place the elimination of funding for the Company for Public Broadcasting is so brief sighted – it primarily serves rural areas wherein the PBS sign could be the solely sign they get. In addition they haven’t solely our good youngsters’s and prime time stuff, they’ve classroom on the air persevering with training, homeland safety, crop experiences, climate emergency info. That we will take away? This appears foolhardy and appears misguided, primarily as a result of there’s a notion amongst a handful of those that that is someway a blue or a left wing factor, when that is the place that, for 32 years, gave William F. Buckley a present, proper? I imply, it’s- and it’s- that present is, by the way in which, continues to be happening and moderated by a conservative. So I simply assume that perhaps we’re throwing the newborn out with the tub water. And I could not do- let me personalize it, and I did not need to. John, I could not do any of the movies I’ve accomplished with out them being on PBS. I might go right into a streaming service or a premium cable tomorrow and get each one of many thousands and thousands of {dollars} it took to do that in a single pitch, however they would not give me 10 years. They need it in a yr or a yr and a half, and that is the deal. I am unable to do this. Identical with Vietnam, similar with the Civil Conflict, similar with Jazz, similar with the Nationwide Parks, similar with, you realize, the Roosevelts, all of those- Nation Music, all of these have taken time to incubate, and that has been below the system that has one foot tentatively within the market and the opposite proudly out, type of just like the Nationwide Parks or the Declaration of Independence utilized to the panorama. These are actually good American establishments that signify all people from the underside up, which is what it is at all times about. That is the essence of what Thomas Jefferson was speaking about.
JOHN DICKERSON: As somebody who labored so exhausting on telling the story of slavery and enslaved folks in varied other ways, what did you study slavery in America from engaged on this?
KEN BURNS: It is so difficult and so fascinating. I- I feel the factor that was most hanging that is come to me is that it was actually clear that our founders, even these founders who owned different human beings, knew that the establishment of slavery was indefensible. It is solely later within the nineteenth century that you’re going to form of make- you may attempt to make excuses for why it is okay and that they are actually wrestling with methods, however there are human beings which can be owned by different human beings. There are slaves from New Hampshire to- to Georgia. And one individual, the scholar Annette Gordon-Reed, says it is essential to grasp that the South is a slave society and the North is a society with slaves, and there is a huge distinction. So even inside america, I used to be studying continually. Possibly 20,000 Black folks fought within the Revolution, most likely 15 for the British who had cynically provided them their freedom. Not freedom of loyalists, proper? And the way you are going to inform I do not know, but- however they are- after which 5,000 fought valiantly for the Patriot trigger. It’s totally, very difficult, and you’ll by no means say a categorical them about anyone, and that is all we do. Look, I’ve- I’ve made movies concerning the U.S. for all of my skilled life, however I’ve additionally made movies concurrently about us, all the intimacy of that, all of the majesty and complexity and contradiction and controversy of the U.S. And the factor I’ve realized, if I’ve realized something, is that there is solely us, there is no them, and we’re continually being advised: there is a them. There isn’t any them and that is what this doc produced by the person who- who sat on this room, you realize, and checked out, you realize, heard his troubled secretary Meriwether Lewis, say, you realize what, 15 million received you? It received you this. And, by the way in which, there is no Northwest Passage, however look what you might have right here. And you have got, you realize, the Lewis and- this is- this is- that is the place you realize he- he- he learns the entire thing.
JOHN DICKERSON: If there’s solely us and no them, it’s also a pressure in American historical past: have a look at them, go get them.
KEN BURNS: That is proper. It is the best factor. It is the authoritarians’ playbook. That is what you at all times do. You make- should you make an enemy and also you say, you realize, your downside is that there is that factor occurring, however there’s actually not that. The entire spiritual traditions remind us that, or attempt to remind us that, and- and we need to overlook it. There’s one thing simplistic about permitting ourselves to be satisfied that there’s a them, you realize, we- we’ve- we’ve- we have, in our personal political paperwork, have enshrined the sanctity of the person. The spiritual doctrines have been doing that for hundreds of years. And so the thought of creating distinctions, you realize, I keep in mind I gave a speech at Brandeis, a graduation speech, speaking concerning the Center East, and I stated, these three nice religions, all with declare to the identical holy floor, have turned it right into a shameful graveyard. God doesn’t distinguish between the useless.
JOHN DICKERSON: There’s a number of speak about them lately. Are you hoping to pierce that with this telling of America’s starting?
KEN BURNS: I haven’t got a aware want to do that. There’s- there is a type of- that means a type of agenda, type of a political agenda. I do know {that a} good story is a benign Computer virus. You’re taking it in and it- it- it- at evening, it goes into the town, and it does not slay anyone. It simply reminds them: no them, no them, no them. That is- is not this glorious? Is not this- is not this essential? Is not this extraordinary? Is not the complication value studying about? And that- that is the one thing- that’s- if- now we have been- now we have been actually disciplined to say we simply need to inform a narrative. I imply, Mark Twain stated historical past does not repeat itself, nevertheless it rhymes. We consciously perceive, as we’re engaged on a movie, how many- how a lot it is rhyming within the current and it modifications a bit of bit, and modifications that. However we do not ever attempt to put neon indicators going, look how a lot that is a lot like as we speak. We simply need to let that resonate. And also you go, oh my goodness, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they might have wigs and so they could have breeches, they’re very very similar to us.
JOHN DICKERSON: As a result of should you put an excessive amount of of a thumb on the dimensions, you smash the story, and then you definately kill the facility of the story.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper. You must let it inform the story. Our job is to be an excellent storyteller. Interval, full cease, finish of sentence.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which implies telling a narrative properly sufficient that any person would possibly take a conclusion that is completely completely different than–
KEN BURNS: Oh, completely you- you realize, I keep in mind watching this and going, oh my god, there’s- there’s really locations for all completely different sorts of individuals to search out buy. , it is a big- an excellent story is an enormous home with a lot of completely different doorways, and we are inclined to undergo the entrance door and assume that is it. Anyone could also be coming within the aspect door. Anyone could also be coming- climbing up and- and breaking in from the second- nonetheless you get in, you are in, and that is all you need, is, you realize, tales are invites like, honey, how was your day, proper? It does not start: I backed slowly down the driveway, avoiding the rubbish can on the curb, you- you simply edit human expertise. And that is what we spent the final 10 years doing. We’re saying this story of the American founding, our- our creation fantasy, is as essential a narrative to get proper as something, and we have spent 10 years making an attempt to get it proper.
JOHN DICKERSON: In Ken Burns’ historical past, there are lots of mansions. Final question–
(CLOCK CHIMES)
JOHN DICKERSON: Oh, yay. Oh, my God, it is Thomas Jefferson saying, “Wrap it up.”
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN DICKERSON: Okay, this is the- this is the query, what’s the distinction between the Revolutionary Conflict and the American Revolution?
KEN BURNS: Benjamin Rush, who’s the nice doctor of the time, one of many signers of the Declaration, stated that- when it was over, that the- the American warfare is over, however the American Revolution is happening. I feel should you settle for the thought of pursuit of happiness, should you settle for the thought of a extra excellent union, you notice, as we do in our personal lives, in our personal work, in our personal relationships, that it is about course of, that we’re engaged in an ongoing want to attain these items. This perfection is what you need to tilt for. It is unattainable, clearly, however should you’re not engaged within the energetic pursuit of perfection, self, relationship, group, nation, world, then you definately’re stopped, you are static, and you are not going ahead. And I feel there’s not an American that doesn’t need to go ahead.
JOHN DICKERSON: We’re right here in Jefferson’s home. The one factor he was maybe extra pleased with than Monticello was the College of Virginia. It is on his tombstone. The president of the College of Virginia simply resigned below stress from the president. What would Jefferson assume?
KEN BURNS: Nicely, you realize, it is the primary college that was based in america and not using a spiritual affiliation. It was actually essential to him that a part of this factor that we not make the error of the opposite international locations of getting a set and acknowledged faith. And I feel that he can be shocked at any type of interference with the- with the goings on of a laboratory of- of experimentation, a laboratory of training and discovery.
JOHN DICKERSON: Can we study historical past if the federal government is telling us what we will and may’t do as we attempt to prepare our- our system for studying?
KEN BURNS: Yeah, you positive can. Tales are type of subversive in that method. They simply inform you stuff, the, form of, the inconvenient truths of- of stuff that is happening and good tales are- are very a lot that, I feel, and that is what we hope at all times. I am undecided that we succeed in all places, however telling an excellent story has a type of method of- of setting apart the mythologies or the certainties, proper? There- there’s actually, you realize, the enemy of excellent something is certainty. It is at all times my method or the freeway. That simply does not work. And so tales, good tales, I feel, are- are wonderfully- they’ve a wink to them. And you realize, it is identical to humor, it hits each the sure and no on the similar time. A very good story is at all times going to be amassing the- the complication, the tensions inside and between people, and after they’re represented, then folks develop. You are stunted, and also you’re again to being a topic, you are again to being a superficial peasant, superstitious peasant, should you’re- if- if- should you’re subscribing to 1 set of issues, you realize. It simply jogs my memory of these Soviets modifying the {photograph}, proper? Saying, oh, that individual does not exist anymore. We- we have torn him out. He- he- he does not exist. He goes out of our historical past books. There- it is all there. We- and- and our liberation, you realize, Harry Truman is meant to have stated, the one factor that is actually new is the historical past you do not know. I really like the thought. New.
